Aluminum or copper, too heavy?

[Erick E]

I just started tying tubes and wanted to throw out some questions. I can find both copper and aluminum tubes, @ about 1/8” to 1/16”id, and I’m cutting them down to between ½” - 1 ½” (plus junction tubing) Is that about right for diameter and length sizing?

Secondly, are most tubes tied on plastic or metal? The brass feels right for weight but I’m not sure if they’ll turn over in the river. the aluminum seems to be perfect as well. But should I stay away from metal? I’ve got the Itch to tie, I’d hate to use up a bunch of material only to find out the flies are either too light or too heavy.

Any tips?

Thanks
Erick E

[Speyducer]

The densities of the different tube materials we use for tying flies varies.

(all figures are given as density grams per cubic cm or specific gravity in relation to the density of water)

Polythenes (tubes) - 0.88 to 0.96 [lighter than water]
Nylon (tubes) - 1.15
[Fluorocarbon (lines) - up to 2.0]
Aluminium (tubes & coneheads) - 2.70
[Titanium (too expensive for fishing uses) - 4.5]
Stainless steel (hooks, shanks & tubes) - 7.48 to 8.0
Brass (tubes & coneheads) - 8.43 to 8.73
Copper (tubes & coneheads) - 8.93
Tungsten (tubes & coneheads) - 19.6

I think you have the tube size ranges about right.

There is very little difference between the density of copper & brass, whereas aluminium is much lighter, and nearer to plastic than it is to copper/brass/steel etc.

Mike

[chumbum]

Thanks for the density info...with homemade metal tubes, what are you doing to eliminate sharp edges after cutting? emery cloth/sandpaper? Some sort of buffing bit in a Dremel tool? Any easy way to flare metal tube ends?

[gibby1]

You're on the right track. I do the same with brass and aluminum tubing. I use the plastic micro tubing or extra small, depending on the brand, as a liner and melt the ends. It's easy to jam junction tubing on the end if you like that sort of thing. The brass definitely sinks a little faster than aluminum. The length can be whatever you want. The weight of just the metal tube is not an issue for casting in the lengths you mentioned. Cone heads and dumbbell eyes can also be added if you need it. This ends up being a lot cheaper if you tie a lot. Have fun.

[Tyke]

You can get extra thin stainless steel "needle tubes" as well - great for sparsely tied ethereal patterns & if you want a silver body [silver stoat etc] then leave the body undressed & just tie the wing on.

Regards, Tyke.

[Speyducer]

Originally Posted by Tyke

You can get extra thin stainless steel "needle tubes" as well - great for sparsely tied ethereal patterns & if you want a silver body [silver stoat etc] then leave the body undressed & just tie the wing on.

Regards, Tyke.

Yes, for fine stainless steel tubes, in a variety of metric & imperial sizes, you can obtain these unlined cut-to-length tubes, or metre/2 metre uncut lengths (also obviously unlined) from commercial suppliers

eg in the UK, Tomlinson Tube & Instrument Ltd (Warwickshire)

w w w dot tomlinson-tube.co.uk

I'm sure that simliar suppliers of such fine tubing can be found in N America


Mike

[Erick E]

Thanks for the replies... you guys are a wealth.

If I could keep this going….

Right now the only thing I can find to line the metal tubes is really buoyant. The metal still takes it down @ about a foot a second in the sink test. So I like that.

Question….

What’s with all the plastic tubes tied? They float like corks?
I just watched some Henrik Mortenson stuff and laughed when I saw the dinky fly’s he had tied...sorta. They were almost just the plastic and a treble!! This feels like a dangerous road here. Soon it’ll be #1 black fury’s and little mepps!!

Question #2.

Do you guys tie un-weighted plastic a lot? And if so are they as sparse as Henrik’s.

Originally Posted by chumbum

Thanks for the density info...with homemade metal tubes, what are you doing to eliminate sharp edges after cutting? emery cloth/sandpaper? Some sort of buffing bit in a Dremel tool? Any easy way to flare metal tube ends?

A dermal, some fine grit sandpaper, a pipe cutter, and you’re good to go. Wear safety goggles though, soft metal spits. Watch the eyes

[thegrappler]

As for plastic tubes I like the movement the plastic tube creates by it self, and combined with the material it swims a lot and when a fly creates a lot of movement it's a good fly. My personal preference!

Regards Mortensen, he uses the Sunray fly a lot and that is more or les goat/monkey hair with just the tube and he catches a hell of a lot salmons and seatrout. If I only got to pick one fly it would be a sunray for sure!

[Speyducer]

If the plastic you are using for lining your tubes floats, it is polythene. Indeed, it is the ideal liner for most metal tubes. The metal, as you have found, takes it down.

Most of my ties of tubes are on unweighted plastic tubes. There appears, however, to be a penchant in the UK to slam on as much metal onto a tube tie as possible, with lined metal tubes (copper, brass, tungsten), bottle tubes, and dense coneheads (tungsten, brass) whatever the size of tube flies tied. Whereas in N America, many add lead, brass, & chromed dumbbell eyes to tubes & shanks.

The above added metal is surprising, as in each area, the fishermen are still generally using heavy sinking tips (& sinking lines in Europe) in addition to the weighted tubes for "getting down". I am not convinced by the school of thinking that states if you use an unweighted fly on a sinking tip that the fly always swims significantly higher than the tip of the sinking tip (& by implication, the fisherman using an unweighted fly on a sinking tip will do less well than one with a weighted fly).


Mike

[ifisherman]

I have used both plastic and brass tubes. I like them both and have caught fish with both. I tend to lean towards the plastic but recently I have been thinking about it a bit.

I have been wondering how the plastic sinks. If I toss a 12ft ish tip the tip brings the fly down. However I wonder if it takes too long for the fly to get down with this set up. That is compared to a weighted tube and a shorter tip. I am thinking that with that set up the fly would sink right after it hits the water and then as it gets in towards the bank the shorter tip would help bring it back up off the bottom. How does that sound? I was into the plastic tubes and longer tip because I was thinking the plastic tube helped keep it snag free close to the bank but now I am thinking that that set up just causes the fly to ride to high in the water on the first half of the swing.

[Speyducer]

Originally Posted by chumbum

Thanks for the density info...with homemade metal tubes, what are you doing to eliminate sharp edges after cutting? emery cloth/sandpaper? Some sort of buffing bit in a Dremel tool? Any easy way to flare metal tube ends?

Apart from cutting the metal tube to the correct length with a suitable fine metal saw, or Dremel cutter, and then using a fine metal file to remove any swarf, and to ensure the inner & outer edges of each end of the metal are reasonably smoothe, there is no need for further buffing or polishing of the metal tube ends. The reason for this is very simple. Unless you have industrial specification polishing facilities (as good as the specification for medical metal on plastic implants - joint replacements), then you are literally wasting your time. Without the above medical grade polishing, no metal surface preparation is sufficiently smoothe to eliminate plastic rubbing wear (aka abrasion), so that to leave any metal tube that is to be used to fly fishing unlined is madness. Any abrasion of your mono (plastic) leader on ANY metal edge or roughness etc will result in significant weakness of your leader, and may ultimately lead to loss of fly and fish, usually a big fish or in a tough fight, and you will be kicking yourself for such folly.

There is no need to be perfect in absolute smootheness of the ends of your metal tubes, therefore, as you will be lining these metal tubes with plastic ANYWAY.

And for the same reasons, there is no advantage in attempting to flare the metal ends of any such metal tubes.


Mike

[Speyducer]

Originally Posted by ifisherman

I have used both plastic and brass tubes. I like them both and have caught fish with both. I tend to lean towards the plastic but recently I have been thinking about it a bit.

I have been wondering how the plastic sinks. If I toss a 12ft ish tip the tip brings the fly down. However I wonder if it takes too long for the fly to get down with this set up. That is compared to a weighted tube and a shorter tip. I am thinking that with that set up the fly would sink right after it hits the water and then as it gets in towards the bank the shorter tip would help bring it back up off the bottom. How does that sound? I was into the plastic tubes and longer tip because I was thinking the plastic tube helped keep it snag free close to the bank but now I am thinking that that set up just causes the fly to ride to high in the water on the first half of the swing.

I have heard such reasoning over & over.

What is not considered, however, is this. Any fly and tip will take some time
to reach their maximal fishing depth, it's just that more heavily weighted flies & tips will get down faster. The speed of descent is also goverened by many other factors. Speed of current, angle of initial presentation/cast, any tension or lack of tension in the line/leader.

Unless you are fishing a stream/run with equal depth & equal current speed, and with equal line/leader tension throughout the swing, then there will be variations in the depth the fly travels through the swing anyway. Often, as the fly comes round onto the dangle, this will be in softer (slower) and shallower water.

And the other significant factor which appears to be lost in this quest to get the fly down and keep it there for the entire swing is the fact that the fish do move for the fly, the only modification being that in the very cold waters of winter & spring, the fish will not be inclined to move so far for the fly, and that in heavily coloured water, the fish can't see so far as in clearer water.


Mike