2/3 snake roll

[jpeter]

I happened upon this cast while fishing with the bank fairly close behind me. Downstream wind. It's a modification of the snake roll:
So to start a snake roll, you start the circle heading the rod toward the shore. My variation is to do a nice big lift instead, directly in-line with down stream. From the top of the lift, arc a "C" toward the river side, then down under and back to shore. Touch and deliver.
Is this another known or named cast ? It works. It seems to keep the anchor and line a little farther out in the river than the snake roll. It also uses less motion.

JP

[kush]

You are doing a snake-roll, maybe with a higher lift than normal, but the first movement of a snake-roll, or a spiral-roll cast for that matter, should be out toward the river.

[jpeter]

The whole rotating lift would be toward the river, I agree with that. But the horizontal motion, the flat part of the "e" is toward the shore, right ? The cast I was doing would be as if you rotated the "e" 90 deg such that the flat part is vertical up.

Just a variation I guess, but it seemed to use less motion than the normal roll.

jp

[Rick J]

Kush is right - the inital lift is up and then you rotate outwards. I suppose you could say that the initial lift could be up and slightly inwards towards shore.

If you are a member of Speypages and can view Dana's video clips - he has a number of them on the snake roll

[chromedome]

In a down river wind I use a snake roll a little more often than I use other casts. But it is as described by jpeter before he then describes his new cast. This is the cast Simon Gawesworth describes in videos and in his book. But from coming on this forum I have come to respect the wisdom of Kush so this all has me puzzled. In the snake roll cast I use, there is first the smooth lift of the rod tip, followed immediately by moving the rod tip back toward shore along the flat part of the "e". I've seen an instructor do it in a spey clave and Hazel on video as well. I've never seen the initial toward the river move that, as I understand it, Kush describes.

[Tayside]

Kush is saying that the first move after the lift is towards the river.
Hope that clears it up.


Ian

[kush]

Chromedome,

After the initial lift the first motion of the snake-roll roll needs to be out toward the river. This will place your anchor more out in front of you - this is especially important with longer belly lines. A first motion to the bank will place your anchor much closer to the shore and restrict the area available for d-loop formation. As well this will in effect create an extra motion (almost two loops on the top of the "9") the extra rotation is not only a waste of motion but it increases the opportunity for lost energy in the d-loop. Make the first move out into the river then follow it with a low smooth bottom of the "9" drifting back up into the firing position. The power of the cast comes from this low powerful motion along the bottom of the "9", it also creates the smooth level landing of the tip into the all-important anchor.

jp,

I am not exactly sure what it is you are doing, but if the bottom of the "9" (or "e")is going vertical as you describe the result I see is driving the anchor into a smack-down on the surface - a big league crashed anchor .

What I would suggest for tight quarters casting with a snake roll is a "snake-poke". This is one of my favourite long-belly fishing casts. It starts with the snake roll motion, but after the anchor lights I "flop" the forward cast out into the river (the poke), then I lift it back into the d-loop and fire. When the d-loop area is really restricted I accentuate the initial roll out into the river to make the anchor land well in front of me, then I further this effect by pushing the "poke" a little further out as well. Now when I pick the dumped line back up into the d-loop most of it is in front and the d-loop stays off the bank. This anchor and loop out in front will require a little more "whack" in the forward cast - but some very impressive casts can be achieved with a long belly line with very little room behind the caster.

All that said, fishing effectively is what this spey casting stuff is all about - I have "created" some pretty funky casts in an effort to cover some water that defied conventional casts. So if your variation works for then it is all good.

[jpeter]

I have a feeling that what i was describing is how many people do a normal snake roll. Maybe I'm finally doing it right! The anchor doesn't crash hard on the water. Here's a diagram of what i was trying to convey.





Will try the snake poke the next time I have my back to the wall.

thx for the comments - jp

[Alan Maughan]

Originally Posted by kush

You are doing a snake-roll, maybe with a higher lift than normal, but the first movement of a snake-roll, or a spiral-roll cast for that matter, should be out toward the river.

I respectfully disagree Kush.

Where you want to place your anchor should be your first consideration. If you have room to put it square off your casting shoulder then this will be the most efficient regardless of belly length. In this instance your rotation will need to be inward towards your own bank first then up and over. The rotation should be as much behind you as it is in front.

If you are tight for room behind then it is perfectly acceptable as you describe to lift and start your rotation into the river but your anchor will be further out in the river and there will be less of a d-loop behind you which isnt so efficient although at times that is whats needed.

Both examples are based on casts to 90 degrees.

As the angle of direction change becomes shallower ie 45 degrees there is less room for this into the river first rotation as it increases the sweep needed to bring the line back into place. The shallower the angle change the more the rotation has to happen equally behind and in front of you.

Just my opinion

[kush]

Alan I respectfully appreciate the edit.

In the proper spirit I will agree with you - to an extent. If you look at the video clip I have attached indeed I do make my initial motion toward the bank - so I must agree with you. However, if you consider that this motion has little real energy toward the shore and is in effect setting up the much more dynamic motion out into the river you will see what I was referring to in the first post. This is quite a bit more evident in the slow motion part of the clip. As well, in the shots at the end of the clip where the camera is on the high bank it is clear where the emphasis of the motion is, in fact it is hard to notice the slight motion to the beach that sets up the motion out into the river. http://www.speypages.com/video/snakerolldvd.mpg

For those interested in the snake-poke there is some footage of that here as well. BTW this clip is from the Spey Pages DVD Limited Edition

[SpeySpaz]

JPeter,
whatever you call it I do that a lot when I'm stuck with my back to the trees, especially when fishing a short floating or intermediate head, or with my switcher. I don't like doing that with heavy or long sinktips though.
I'd call it a useful snake roll variant. In my lexicon, it fits in the "Skandit" armamentarium...
regarde, Bob

[Rick J]

In Dana's latest video he spends a great deal of discussion dealing with slack and how to avoid it. One way to avoid slack is not to pause between the intitial lift and the next portion of the cast. This makes the most sense for touch and go casts like the snake roll. So it seems if the lift is just a continuation, it does not make much sense to lift then move inward towards the bank but rather lift and rotate out to the river.

The amount of acceleration you put into the the rotation especially once you begin the formation of your D loop and how far back you reach will really determine where you place your anchor and it will not necesssarily be out further in the river if you do not first rotate in towards the bank

[chromedome]

Kush,

I've reviewed your excellent video.
Aside from some very minor aspects, and the fact that you set up your cast by stripping in line whereas I do a roll cast to bring my weighted fly to the surface, the snake roll you do is identical to the one I do. I do not shoot line, however, as you do.
Respectfully, I have to say that you, in contrast to what you said in the beginning of this thread, do make that all important initial backward movement toward the bank. Hazel, in another video makes special mention of how he feels pointing the rod toward the bank after the lift is important. I don't necessarily advocate bank pointing, but do feel this a very important part of the cast.

[Bob Pauli]

I was taught the initial move of a snake roll is toward shore, if there is room.

If I want to cast upriver [greater than 90 degrees] my initial move is toward center river.

[Alan Maughan]

Originally Posted by Rick J

One way to avoid slack is not to pause between the intitial lift and the next portion of the cast.

Again I would respectfully disagree with this theory

The avoidance of slack is a pre-requisite for efficient spay casting but moving into a cast directly after a lift or including the lift as part of the repositioning movement can be fraught with problems and can for many actaually introduce slack not remove it.

Once the lift is made there will be an initial moment when the line will sag under its own weight before it settles and holds position on the water, once settled there is no slack present in the system and the second part of the repositioning movement can begin. If the lift is made too abruptly it will introduce slack itself (try it next time you are on the river, make an abrupt lift then pause and watch all the slack within your rod rings) if you then immediately try to move into the next part of the cast an amount of initial rod tip movement will be taken up with sorting out the slack hence cutting down on sweep length/time.

Originally Posted by Rick J

So it seems if the lift is just a continuation, it does not make much sense to lift then move inward towards the bank but rather lift and rotate out to the river.

I think this is where many casters get it wrong, especially beginners. I would treat the lift as an initial and very seperate movement to the following repositioning movemnent. I believe the initial lift is often highly under-rated, a steady smooth lift followed by a pause is a great foundation to build any Spey cast on IMHO, including Snake Rolls.

Again just my opinion but it is one shared by many other instructors.