Switch Rod Comments

[Riveraddict]

Just a few observations on Switches, as this seems to be a popular subject of discussion lately...

I have been under the impression that a Switch is more or less "just" an extended version of a singlehanded rod. Now, I'm not talking "action" here, as that's a whole different discussion, but rather that a 7 weight Switch should cast a 7 weight singlehanded line in a singlehanded overhead cast same as would a "standard" singlehanded 7 weight rod. Can any of the rod designers clarify this point? And, is there anything "wrong" with this, as has been alluded to in one of the other Switch rod threads?

Taking into consideration that if what was stated above is true, the need to overline the same rod in a twohanded overhead casting mode is because casting in that manner precludes the use of a doublehaul. Thus, because of the lack of being able to add line speed through doublehauling - therefore rod load - we need to add more line weight to "adjust" for this fact. But, even if we have to upline a #7 Switch to a 9 line for twohanded overhead casting, it is still a "true" 7, is it not?!

Why use a Switch?
- Casting overhead at distances over 60' continuously in a twohanded mode is much less physically taxing. This should be obvious, especially as concerns rods rated at 7 or above. Examples - fishing Kings or silvers from a boat, long casts, sinktips, big flies, heavy flies, on 7 to 12 weight rods, casting all day long. Doing this on singlehanders is physically taxing to say the least. In worst case scenarios it can lead to wrist, elbow or shoulder problems... just ask my elbow! With a Switch - no problems
- Casting "Spey" at distances less than 60'. Switch rods used in a "Spey" capacity work great at those shorter distances where most Speyrods - because of their greater rod length - start to feel cumbersome. There are MANY situations of fishing where most of the fish to be caught are within 60' of one's wading position!

[Rick J]

a question I have been wondiering about also for some time. I wonder if the Sage 11' 7 wt would overhead cast a 7 wt line well?

I just had a friend convert three old Fisher rods I made up to switches by adding a bottom grip extension - 10' 7 wt; 10' 8wt and 10.5' 8-9 wt.

Have yet to get them on the water to test but my favorite lines on these rods are Wullf TT's (for floating) and I plan to take them out this weekend to try these lines. As you suggest Ed, I expect I will want to upline them some to spey cast and I also have a couple of WC bodies I want to try as skagit lines on them

[cbinwindsor]

I've read this about 5 times and I think I know what you're asking.....

I own a 8/9 Beulah Switch and here's my take.

A switch rod is rated based on the size of fly you want to fish. So with that in mind, my 8wt switch can spey cast flies that otherwise would be cast on an 8wt single handed rod. To facillitate spey casting with my 8wt switch I need a heaver line than a standard AFTMA 8wt line. With heavier line I need a stiffer rod. Hence an 8wt switch rod is stiffer than an 8wt single hander and therefore an AFTMA 8wt line on a switch rod will not load substantially. So to asnswer the question I don't think an 8wt switch will effectively cast an AFTMA 8wt line.

Where a switch rod get's it's overhead casting abillity IMHO comes from it's length. I can double haul my Beulah 8/9 no problem but if it was any longer I don't think my wrists would survive. So overhead casting lined for spey casting, my Beulah 8/9 is a soft 12wt rod. If you go to the Beulah site you'll see this in the line recommendations for overhead casting. So to answer the other question, the rod needs more line because it's made to spey cast. I've cast a 9.5 wt AFTMA line on a 7/8 switch and I would have preferred something heavier.

Does that help? Am I nuts? These are just my obeservations based on my one and only switch rod. IMHO, switch rods are just mini spey rods that are short enough to occasionally overhead cast. It's the lenght that makes it a switch to me. I've never used anything over 10'6" but I think if I did I would not be able to double haul it without wrist soreness (can anyone confirm this?).

CB

[sushiyummy]

The above rod is rated a 6 wght. So getting this right, the lines would be:
1. SH: 160 gr @30ft (AFTMA 6 rating)
2. Overlining for overhead 2 handed: 210-240 gr @30 ft (AFTMA 8 & 9 rating)

I didnot see a comment on making the jump in grainage from Overhead to spey, but this rod loads a 5 wgt steelhead taper well (260 grain @ 56').

BTW, does a switch rod have a longer fore grip than a regular full wells grip? I find the hand separation a bit too cramp with this regular SH grip.

[clyde olson]

RA would have the expert opinion here, but I think your statement that " with a heavier line I need a stiffer rod" is not true. For spey casting a switcher(especially Skagit), I would think just the opposite, and personally find softer rather than stiffer rods work better.

[cbinwindsor]

Originally Posted by clyde olson

RA would have the expert opinion here, but I think your statement that " with a heavier line I need a stiffer rod" is not true. For spey casting a switcher(especially Skagit), I would think just the opposite, and personally find softer rather than stiffer rods work better.

I hear you but let me elaborate. Different folks will have different preferences in what a properly loaded rod is so this is what works for me...

The 8/9 switch line for my Beulah Rod is 420g. By single handed standards that's 13wt line despite the rod being rated an 8/9. A single handed 8 wt line is half that. The Beulah site recommends 330-400g for overhead casting. That's a 12wt line. The rod has got to be "stiffer" than a 8wt single hander to handle that kind of load. So if you put a 8wt single hander line on this thing it would barely be working.

Perhaps I should replace "stiffer" with "stronger".

I'm starting to wonder if I'm making progress here or just digging myself deeper....LOL!!

CB

[cbinwindsor]

Originally Posted by sushiyummy

BTW, does a switch rod have a longer fore grip than a regular full wells grip? I find the hand separation a bit too cramp with this regular SH grip.

My Beulah is quite a bit longer.

CB

[Riveraddict]

...this is kind of what I wanted to see - what "standards" are rod makers using to rate their Switch rods. Are they all on the same page with this, or are we going to see ratings "all over the place" such as is the current status with Spey rods?!

If they all used the singlehand casting parameter as the standard, then we would actually see a fair bit of standardization from manufacturer to manufacterer, and could thus make fairly accurate assessments on what lines to use from rod to rod. Example - if a Sage & Loomis 7 weight Switch were both rated to cast a 7 weight singlehanded line in a singlehand overhead casting mode, and I found that for my Skagit casting that the Sage cast well with a 360 grain Skagit line with 100 grain tips in a Skagit casting mode, then I could also be certain that that same Skagit set-up would work on the Loomis Switch. But, if each manufacturer is using their own arbitrary method for determining the line rating on their Switch rods, well then we as anglers are a bit HOSED, eh?!

CBinwindsor - rods are rated by line weights, not by sizes of flies they can cast.

Rick - the Sage 11' 7 weight Skagit casts really well with the SA singlehand Skagit in 360 grains (designated as a 7 weight), coupled with 100ish grain tips. So does the Loomis 11' 7 weight Switch.

I have also cast an 8 weight Loomis Switch with a SA SH 400 (rated as an 8) with 120ish grain tips - felt good. The TFO 11' 5 weight and Meiser 10 1/2' 4/5/6 with a homemade Skagit belly of 315 grains and 80ish grain tips - good match on both rods. So, at least on these rods there does appear to be some similar standard of rating.

Sushiyummy - the foregrip on most Switches is noticeably longer than a standard singlehand grip. On lighter rods - 5 weights and under - it doesn't seem too important. But on the heavier Switches it does seem to help out to be able to separate the hands a bit during casting.

One rather interesting fishing scenario I ran into this year... fishing an area of flooded timber. Not enough room to make any sort of overhead flycast because of all the timber, but in most places, using a short Skagit system (totalled out completely at 30') on a Sage 11' Switch I could fish about 85% of it while wading around expecting to get trounced on by an alligator at any minute!

[cbinwindsor]

Originally Posted by Riveraddict

CBinwindsor - rods are rated by line weights, not by sizes of flies they can cast.

Well then would somebody out there explain why my 8/9 switch rod casts 12 or 13 wt line?? It's not even 8/9 in a windcutter.

It's the only rationale I've got man when it comes to switch rods. I think I read it somewhere once too...wish I could remember where...

CB

[Riveraddict]

...in the "flyworld" is the AFTMA singlehanded line ratings. Using those ratings, just about anyone can use research to determine with reasonable accuracy - what size of flies(in general) a particular rod will cast (determined by line rating), what general conditions the rod is suited for (also determined by line size coupled with rod length), and what size of fish the rod is aimed at (also determined by line rating).

But when it comes to "Spey", throw "consistency" out the window!

As for "Switch"... still to be determined!

[kweetech]

Some rods seems to be laid out simply in terms of line...like the Meisers and Beulahs. Grain designations, suggested lines..etc. ..more akin to the two hand world than the single hand rod world.
Some rods are a crap shoot...like the 11-7 Winston BiiX. It really feels like a long single hand rod...but twohand casts great with the right line (took some figuring out). Its rated as a 7 wt single hand...and works out as a 5/6 two hand (by the lines it likes).


It seem there is no standard at this point..some rods seem designed/marketed like shortened two hand rods, some seem like extended single hand rods...esp. when it comes to line ratings.

Either way..they are fun ....esp on some of our GL water

[Bill Malin]

Please feel free to disagree with anything I say, I am simply speaking from my own experience. But I do believe I have the answer for the switch rod rating system being unlike any other.

Much of the confusion in finding appropriate lines for my switch rods has to do with the fact that the AFTMA line weights are referenced to the first 30 ft of the line. While the Spey/TH community rate the lines by weighing the whole head, not just the first 30 ft. We even go so far as to break the weight system into multiple different classes ie. short belly, long, Scando, Skagit.

Switch rods are unique in that the modern ratings are based on one specific modified flyline.

I believe the switch rod ratings are based on which modified windcutter you were supposed to use. (Assumes single spey etc. not skagit) Back when the switch rod thing came into full swing around three years ago, the only lines that really came close to working well were based on windcutter bodies. That is what Beulah, Bob & Gary all used for quite a while when these newer rods were developed. If you look at a table of the Beulah Elixir lines that work so well, cross referenced to a weight matrix of the Rio windcutters WITHOUT TIP 2, you will find they come pretty damn close, usually within 10 grains or so if not exactly the same.
For Example:
Elixir Switch 6/7 @ 335gr. Windcutter 6/7 w/o tip 2 @ 324gr
Elixir Switch 7/8 @ 380gr. Windcutter 7/8 w/o tip 2 @ 375gr
Elixir Switch 8/9 @ 420gr. Windcutter 8/9 w/o tip 2 @ 420gr

If one is to consider single hand lines for their "switch" rods, wouldn't it stand to reason that weighing the entire head is the only way to ascertain the true "weight" of the line. I have a couple of six & seven weight single hand lines that are well over 300gr heads.

[sushiyummy]

Bill, you are correct in the SH being 30' cuttoff. I came across this article that expands the AFTMA ratings for Spey by Bruce Richards.

http://speypages.com/speyclave/showthread.php?t=17705

But I am wondering would Skagit (plus tips) fall under the Shooting Head column?

[Riveraddict]

...for the explanation and insight. I thought that a line weighed its designated weight regardless of length. For instance, a #6 @ 160 grains weighed 160 grains whether it was a 30' weight forward or a 40' weight forward. Your clarifying the 30' "measure" point explains a lot for me. In fact that now totally explodes the "rational" part of AFTMA standards for me - they aren't so rational after all. Seems to me now that ALL flyrods, regardless of type (singlehand, doublehand, Spey, etc) should be rated by the manufacturer as to the number of grains it is meant to cast, and in which "manner". That would seem so much more "logical".

By the way, there are some interesting facts/opinions on AFTMA standards to be had by putting "AFTMA line standards" into a search on the internet. It appears that even the rod manufacturers don't necessarily go by AFTMA standards.

One has to wonder what would be so difficult about using grain weights and casting method as rod ratings. Abbreviations would be easy to cover the major methods of casting:
- SHO.....single hand overhead
- DHO.....doublehand overhead
- LLS......longline Spey
- S/U......Scando/Underhand
- SKA......Skagit

Every rod would not have to carry all the different classes of casting on it as most rods are targeted towards one or two methodologies. For instance a 12 1/2' fast action doublehander would typically be intended by the manufacturer as a Scando-type rod, thus it would be marked as such:
S/U - 275 grains

Such a class of rod could also be employed by two other casting methodologies - twohand overhead and Skagit - and if the rod manufacturer wished to also target these audiences with the same rod then it would be labeled as such:
S/U - 275 grains
DHO - 225 grains
SKA - 350 grains

(these grain "numbers" are just examples to illustrate the differences that would occur in line weights with varying casting methods and not necessarily "correct" numbers!)

[Attack]

the manufacturers make it so confusing so you have to buy lots of lines til you find the right one...more income